#20942 - 03/08/09 01:27 PM
Advice needed for a new project
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alexmestral
newbie
Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 3
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Hey!
I'm just about to start major renovation works in my flat and I'm planning to set up an HA system. I've got no experience whatsoever in HA, and I'm a bit dump in electronics, so I guess I'll have some fun.
A few priorities:
1. any HA system should have manual override
2. I'd like the systems to be controlled by a centralised PLC
3. I'd like the basic automation to be done without the need of a PC on 24/7. This should only be required for Video/Audio, and maybe for sending alarm messages by email
4. I'd rather prefer avoiding too many RFs around my home
5. I live in Europe so no chance of going for Insteon
Here is my desired set-up:
1. lighting system using X10 micromodules so you can control them both by pushbutton associated to each zone, or by X10 signals sent from the controller
2. same for some electric appliances like blinds, water heater, radiators, etc...
3. both my furnace and AC systems will have conduits to the different rooms, each with a servovalve that should again be controlled by X10 micromodules
4. the usual IR controlled stuff should also be there (TV, Satellite, audio)
Here is what I have in mind:
1. Ocelot as the PLC
2. Logitech Harmony 1000 to trigger events and manage scenes
3. Marmitek micromodules (LW12 for lights, AW12 and AD10 for appliances, SWM1P for servovalves and blinds, TMW4 for using a pushbutton connected to it in order to trigger macros like "I'm off to work", "I'm going to bed" or "I'm back in" that Ocelot shall transform in orders for the X10 and IR devices)
4. SECU16 IR for tha required IR devices
5. A lot of temperature, humidity, movement, power consumption and light sensors around the flat, to be used by Ocelot for security, lighting, audio, and for logging and reporting.
6. A zoned sound system, can be one-source, with pads with IR receiver in each zone, to be controlled both manually and automatically
7. A Home Theatre PC for all Audio/Video tasks and if possible for sending alarm emails, to be shut on/off via IR by Ocelot (I guess with HomeSeer automatically booting when turning on)
Now here are my questions:
1. Any issue in using Logitech Harmony, with a RF extender connected to the IR input on the Ocelot for trigerring events?
2. How can I store a log file with the status of the variables (mainly the sensors) and the actions taken by Ocelot? Is that possible without a PC on? If so, every day the PC would download the log file for the last day and process it in a report. Any clue on how to do that?
3. Still, main issue is on AC control. I want to keep the thermostat coming with the AC (for the manual override thing, and because I just prefer it). After investigating a lot, the only solution I found is to do this by means of IR, and somehow fooling the thermostat with the setpoint temperature in order to get him to properly condition the particular area I want (together with the servovalves of the conduits), based on the temperature and humidity sensors readings. Problems are: I can't find how I can make the talk bidirectional. How can know Ocelot the status of the AC, and whether I overrode the command sent by it? In Europe most AC manufacturers like Mitsubishi are offering KNX interfaces for their equipment. How can I make these KNX interfaces talk to Ocelot? I found some Serial to KNX converters like SIM-KNX, but Ocelot, as far as I understood, can only send Serial ASCII commands, but no way it can input and operate with them. What about the rs-485: some interfaces would allow to control the AC through rs-485 using ModBus, like http://www.intesis.com/eng/intesisbox_me_ac_mbs_1_frame_eng.htm, but I'm not really understanding if the rs-485 in the ocelot is open for using with devices other than ADI's. If so, I guess it is just a matter of sending the right ModBus commands. Anyone has succeeded in that? Any alternative solution?
4. Sensors: I don't know where to start. Bobcat solution seems perfect, except for the price. I don't think I can afford thorough sensoring with Bobcat. RFXCom seems a good alternative, but why going wireless if I have the opportunity of wiring the house? I saw 1-wire sensors that seem to be very efficient and cost-efective, but how do I interface them with Ocelot? If it is feasible, can Ocelot easily use what it reads from them? Any alternative?
Well, I did not get on the Audio topic on purpose, 'cause I think I've already been too long. Next time. Meanwhile, I would really appreciate some light from you experts!
Thanks
Alex
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#20943 - 03/09/09 10:02 AM
Re: Advice needed for a new project
[Re: alexmestral]
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dahlheim
junior
Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 41
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with respect to temperature sensing, if you don't need perfect temperature resolution in the usual household temperature range, you might consider what i'm using in my house now. i refer to it in this post:
http://appdigusers.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=20811#Post20811
and would be glad to offer more info as needed.
one could do better, i'm sure, but it was fairly easy and works with my Leo2, and thus would work with the Ocelot.
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#20948 - 03/12/09 03:53 AM
Re: Advice needed for a new project
[Re: dahlheim]
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alexmestral
newbie
Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 3
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Hey!
Thanks for your answer! I'll try and go for it. However, reading at the SECU16I manual, I see that there is a straight way for using the analog inputs as a trigger with threshold values. Is it also possible to use the actual value and convert the input voltage in a variable value?
If so, I guess the only requirement on the sensors are that V range should be 0-5V, and they should somehow be powered independently, as SECU16I is not powering them, is it? I'll look for sensors complying with this here in Europe.
Besides, you could probably bring some light to some questions I have on the Serial interface. First, I understand that Ocelot has no possibility of reading ASCII data from the serial port or from the Bobcat. Right? This is a pity, because this would open many possibilities to interface with other systems, like KNX (EIB) in Europe. It can still command, but not gather the status of the controlled devices.
Any alternative solution? The rs-485 seems not to be open in the Ocelot for using for purposes others than Bobcat interfacing. Is there a way for customising this port and make it work as a I/O for other equipment?
Then, what is the point in getting an additional ASCII Bobcat, if Ocelot is capable by itself of sending ASCII messages? Does it allow to store more messages?
Whether it is with the additional Bobcat or just with the Ocelot, how could you store the messages in order to use them as a log file? I would like Ocelot to send ASCII message when a trigger happens, or regularly stating the status of the variables, and these to be recorded somewhere. Ideally, not in a PC... I was thinking of having the PC normally off, and when turned on, to download the log from the Ocelot, process it and create reports.
Do you think this way of monitoring the system is feasible? Or do you think that if I want to monitor my system I need to have a PC connected to the Ocelot 24/7, and the logging should be done by software (HS or similar)?
Regards
Alex
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#20949 - 03/12/09 04:28 AM
Re: Advice needed for a new project
[Re: alexmestral]
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Guy Lavoie
Beyond All Hope
Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 6401
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
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Hey!
Thanks for your answer! I'll try and go for it. However, reading at the SECU16I manual, I see that there is a straight way for using the analog inputs as a trigger with threshold values. Is it also possible to use the actual value and convert the input voltage in a variable value?
Yes, you can capture the analog value into a variable and then do IF/THEN logic tests on it to determine the status of your input device. However doing it this way is slower (does not "latch" the status like the on/off threshold method does) and requires the input device to hold that voltage for longer (a couple of seconds ideally) to be sure an event is not missed.
If so, I guess the only requirement on the sensors are that V range should be 0-5V, and they should somehow be powered independently, as SECU16I is not powering them, is it? I'll look for sensors complying with this here in Europe.
That's right, input sensors need to keep the signal between 0 and 5 volts, and the module cannot provide the power.
Besides, you could probably bring some light to some questions I have on the Serial interface. First, I understand that Ocelot has no possibility of reading ASCII data from the serial port or from the Bobcat. Right? This is a pity, because this would open many possibilities to interface with other systems, like KNX (EIB) in Europe. It can still command, but not gather the status of the controlled devices.
The Ocelot's own serial port cannot read random data, but there is a command set that can be interpreted to do things like change a variable, trigger an IR output, etc. The format is an ASCII string like, for example, "+V010002" to change variable 1 to a value of 2. The serial bobcat is more flexible in terms of accepting ASCII strings and looking for a match in order to trigger an event, and supports different baud rates as opposed to the fixed 9600 baud rate of the Ocelot
Any alternative solution? The rs-485 seems not to be open in the Ocelot for using for purposes others than Bobcat interfacing. Is there a way for customising this port and make it work as a I/O for other equipment?
No, the RS-485 bus is only used for adicon expansion modules or slave controllers.
Then, what is the point in getting an additional ASCII Bobcat, if Ocelot is capable by itself of sending ASCII messages? Does it allow to store more messages?
It gives you extra ASCII outputs in case you need more then the one in the Ocelot, supports different baud rates, allows for input to match ASCII string patterns. It supports the same number of strings as the Ocelot (128 strings of 32 chars each).
Whether it is with the additional Bobcat or just with the Ocelot, how could you store the messages in order to use them as a log file? I would like Ocelot to send ASCII message when a trigger happens, or regularly stating the status of the variables, and these to be recorded somewhere. Ideally, not in a PC... I was thinking of having the PC normally off, and when turned on, to download the log from the Ocelot, process it and create reports.
You could not log and store data in the Ocelot (memory is too limited for this). You would really need to have a PC or some other serial data storage device to store the serial strings.
Do you think this way of monitoring the system is feasible? Or do you think that if I want to monitor my system I need to have a PC connected to the Ocelot 24/7, and the logging should be done by software (HS or similar)?
Most people who do this do in fact use a program like HS or HAL.
_________________________
"If you don't know what you're doing, do it neatly..."
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#20951 - 03/12/09 11:30 AM
Re: Advice needed for a new project
[Re: Guy Lavoie]
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dahlheim
junior
Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 41
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with respect to powering the sensor, yes you need to just provide it with extra power. i have several devices (relays, SECU-16) powered from a common 12V supply, and i send a line off of that to the temp sensor.
with respect to putting the actual temperature value in a variable on the Ocelot (i think that's what you were asking about...?...), yes you can do so, although as i mentioned, the actual "resolution" (accuracy) is not perfect. refer to the post i linked to in my last post on this thread. you would likely need a PC to store and/or log these data.
i have come up with a way to communicate the temperature value from my Leo2 to HAL using a "dummy" SECU module in HAL. Jim Lipsit's excellent website offers a means to communicate from an Ocelot to HAL (http://www.james.lipsit.com/ocelot_to_hal.htm). by creating eight individual dummy sensors on a dummy SECU module, i use CMAX to convert the temperature value to binary, then send an "on" or "off" for each bit of that value to HAL, which converts these values back to the base-10 temperature value.
also note in the other thread that i needed to account for the fact that the temperature sensor device rapidly fluctuates between temperature values as the temperature drifts "between" two numbers, so that the programs are not rapidly switching my furnace on/off in this situation.
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#20961 - 03/19/09 03:26 AM
Re: Advice needed for a new project
[Re: dahlheim]
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alexmestral
newbie
Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 3
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Hey!
Wow, thanks for the responses! So here are my thoughts:
HVAC/temperature sensoring: I really like what you propose. The only issue is that I need to run 3 cables from the Ocelot (SECU) + power supply to each measuring device. Ideally, I would have prefered a Bus solution, like Bobcat (expensive), or even better 1wire. The latter would offer many applications for sensoring (temp, humidity, light, power consumption...), would require only one cable and would sort out the powering of the sensors issue. But I can't see any way of interfacing it with Ocelot. I guess digital inputs in the Ocelot is not straight forward. I still want to have a look to wireless solutions (RFXCom maybe) and take a final call. Your solution allows a lot of flexibility, and from my point of view only has the limitations on the "complex" wiring requirements and the 16 I ports you have on the SECU (I guess you can connect many SECUs, but a Bus solution would allow more connections without multiplying the interface modules).
Then the Serial: Guy, what you tell me is very clarifying. I will limit the serial communications to interact with a zoned audio splitting system I have my eye on. The thing is that this system can operate (select the source for each output, mute, control the volume,...) based on simple ASCII strings received on its Serial port(from Ocelot for example, when the latter receives a signal coming from an X10 emitter or by IR), with very simple syntaxis. It also answers with the status of the devices, so I can let Ocelot know when I manually override the commands through the keypad I will locate in each audio zone. The only thing is that I know the syntax used by the splitter, but this is not the one you mentioned "+V....". I'll just need to define all possible strings coming from the splitter and implement them in the Ocelot. If the Serial Bobcat allows more strings recognition than the Ocelot, itself, I'll probably go for it.
Else, as per the PC, I'll add a small one for monitoring, logging, and maybe adding some more capabilities to the system. Ideally, I would like my main PC (an HTPC connected to my video and audio devices), to be able to log in to the Automation PC, in order to monitor the Automation system, but using little resources from my HTPC. With softs like HS, am I able to have a devoted PC doing the tough work (monitoring, storing the status, sometimes controlling...), and an additional one (HTPC) logging at the Automation one and showing the status of the system?
That would get 3 levels: Ocelot, Automation PC and HTPC. Any issue on that? What direction of communications can you have? I mean, if Ocelot receives an IR signal, can the Automation PC know that, and maybe trigger some software event? Can this reach the HTPC?
An example: security. An X10 signal is sent when a contact opens (door). Ocelot receives it and triggers some basic event (for example switching on a light). Now, the Automation PC connected to it could detect this happening, and trigger more complex events (like taking a picture from a webcam, or sending an email alerting me).
Other example. I reach home and press the "I'm back home" pushbutton connected to an X10 emitter. Ocelot reads it and sends an IR signal to wake up my HTPC (among other events, like opening blinds, switching on lights, etc...). The HTPC wakes up and runs iTunes, sending music to my splitting box. Ocelot sends a command to the splitter with the source & output to be activated, the volume, etc...
Summarising: if I have Ocelot connected to the Automation PC, and the latter connected by LAN to my HTPC, how much can the three systems talk to each other? Should the 2 PCs be running HS, for example? Or can I have HS running only on the Automation PC and a Windows Media Centre plugin reading and plotting the values, for example, on the HTPC? I don't know if the communication can be bidirectional over the three levels.
Finally (this one might be a phase 2 project), once I have a PC connected to the system 24/7, is there any possibility of using voice commands? Who should understand them and translate into commands? I guess the Automation PC with HS. Any clue? What about the cabling: how do you wire mics around the house?
Well, thanks again for the answers, and I hope you'll keep bringing some light to my long queries!
Cheers
Alex
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#20964 - 03/20/09 11:31 AM
Re: Advice needed for a new project
[Re: alexmestral]
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dahlheim
junior
Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 41
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my "3-wire" solution for my temperature sensor involved using the same single wire which originally ran from my furnace to my standard thermostat. i installed my temperature sensor in the same gang box where my old thermostat was installed. the typical wire running from a standard thermostat to a furnace has at least three conductors in it, which was all i needed. you wouldn't need to run three separate wires, just one wire with at least three conductors in it.
i'm currently running HAL2000 on a lower-power-consumption PC i built (about 21W), and it suffices for voice recognition and controlling my Leo2 and SECU's. it also runs a VNC server so i can access it from another PC in a manner similar to what you suggest. the possibilities are fairly broad to use events to trigger others, being events for which the HA software is designed, or other events using custom code/apps triggered in turn by the HA software.
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