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#20855 - 02/06/09 09:31 AM LED lighting
John Warner Offline
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 817
Loc: Port Perry, Ontario, Canada
Does anyone have any first-hand experience with LED lighting and X10?

I'm looking at replacing the 8 X 50 watt GU10 110vac halogen bulbs in the new kitchen pot lights with these:

110vac GU10 LED bulbs.

They are plug compatible with the halogens but use 2 watts each rather than 50 for a total of 16 watts vs 400 watts. Since these are the lights we use for area lighting in the kitchen, 400 watts is a lot!

I've done some reading and LED lighting gets mixed reviews for X10 compatibility, especially wrt dimming.

These bulbs claim to be "dimmable" but it's unclear what that means? I currently have an WS12A switch on these pots but could switch to a WS13A/XPS3 relay style switch with no dimming if necessary.
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#20858 - 02/06/09 12:35 PM Re: LED lighting [Re: John Warner]
John Vomastic Offline
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Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 135
Loc: Manitou Springs, Colorado
John,
What you might try is to go to the seller’s feedback page and search for buyers who bought this specific product. I notice one recent buyer who said, “Dimmable LED works as described.” You could contact the buyer for additional information and other buyers who purchased the dimmable LED bulbs.
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#20859 - 02/06/09 03:30 PM Re: LED lighting [Re: John Vomastic]
JeffVolp Offline
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Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 177
Loc: St. George, Utah
We bought a 120V LED lamp last year to light an otherwise dark interior hallway. While I didn't notice it at first, it was later identified as a nasty electrical noise source. Only the fact that it doesn't start emitting noise until just after the end of the X10 reception window allows X10 communication to still function. That bulb has a single high-power CREE LED, which must be driven by some sort of switching power supply. The one you reference could have the LEDs in a series configuration so they can operate off 120V with just a dropping resistor. So, it is possible that one won't be a noise source.
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#20860 - 02/06/09 05:12 PM Re: LED lighting [Re: JeffVolp]
John Warner Offline
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 817
Loc: Port Perry, Ontario, Canada
Thank you both for your feedback!

I'm not too concerned about X10 noise since I already have these 8 pot lights isolated behind an X10 Pro "XPF 20A Wired-in Filter" since the 50 watt halogens currently in them are already somewhat noisy.

What I'm mainly wondering is will a WS12A work with them at all (I understand they depend on some leakage current?), if yes, will it dim them? and, will there be any noticeable flicker?

I don't really need to dim these lights but don't have any spare WS13A switches to use with them (plus I'd prefer not to have the "click" for these lights as they go on/off frequently.)
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#20863 - 02/06/09 09:00 PM Re: LED lighting [Re: John Warner]
JeffVolp Offline
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Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 177
Loc: St. George, Utah
If the LEDs in the bulb are indeed wired in series, they may not work with a 2-wire switch. However, leaving just one halogen in the circuit would provide a conduction path.

FYI, I'm testing a 48 bulb 12V LED light in one of our landscape lights. It is supposed to be warm white, but it has a narrower spectrum than the 20W halogens in the other lights. The red gravel under that light looks gray rather than the red under the halogens. While the LED bulb isn't quite as bright as the halogens, it does a pretty good job for 3 watts. However, if you are planning to replace 50W halogens, I think you will be disappointed.
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#20865 - 02/07/09 06:07 AM Re: LED lighting [Re: JeffVolp]
John Warner Offline
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 817
Loc: Port Perry, Ontario, Canada
Thanks Jeff, that's exactly the kind of first-hand experience I'm looking for! The guy on eBay claims these 48 LED warm white bulbs are equivalent to a 50 watt halogen but your experience confirms my skeptisism.

My other option is plug-compatible GU10-based CF bulbs. They are a little less pricey (about $7 each rather than $12 each.) They are also probably noisy but my filter should look after that part. The dimming and conduction path are also a problem for CF's but I could leave one or more of the Halogens to solve part of that problem (although it may not look right with some pots different than the others?).

The CF's are 7 watts each which is not as good as 2 watts but better than 50 watts. Another advantage of the CF's is I can get them locally in a two-pack (with no eBay shipping costs or wait-time) so experimenting with them is much easier than with the LED bulbs.
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#20867 - 02/07/09 10:11 AM Re: LED lighting [Re: John Warner]
JeffVolp Offline
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Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 177
Loc: St. George, Utah
I wanted to correct my earlier post. That LED light that is the noisemaker has three CREE LEDs, not one. I just replaced it with a CFL, and the noise is gone.
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X-10 automation since the BSR days

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#20869 - 02/08/09 04:56 AM Re: LED lighting [Re: JeffVolp]
John Warner Offline
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 817
Loc: Port Perry, Ontario, Canada
Update for posterity...

We replaced two of the eight 50 watt 110v GU10 halogens in our kitchen pot lights with plug-compatible "warm white" CF's.

They are going back today.

Unlike the halogens which produce a nice warm yellowish spot on the floor, the CF's give a very diffused and much cooler light with no obvious lighting of the floor beneath them.

So, I'm back to where I started with 400 watts of area lighting in the kitchen!

Has anyone measured the power consumption affect of an X10 dimmer? If I dim these lights to 50%, how much power will they consume?
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#20881 - 02/09/09 08:45 AM Re: LED lighting [Re: John Warner]
John Warner Offline
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 817
Loc: Port Perry, Ontario, Canada
I did a test with my EM100 plug-in watt meter using a standard X10 lamp module:

1) Both regular incandescent and 115vac halogens use proportionately less power when dimmed.
2) A standard CF "spiral" bulb I have in a lamp on the same circuit as a regular incandescent bulb did dim but actually consumed more power in the early stages of dimming then began to drop around the 50-60% level.

So, assuming your power company's Watt meter sees the same thing my EM100 does, dimming incandescent bulbs with X10 dimmers should save $$.

Edited by John Warner (02/09/09 11:28 AM)
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